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Nas & Jay-Z Sit Down with Sway on MTV
Friday, February 17, 2006
By: Michael Ivey
 Last night marked another crucial moment in the start of a new phase in hip hop. MTV aired its’ "All Eyez on Me" program featuring former bitter rivals Nas and Jay-Z, considered by many two of the top emcees to ever pick up a microphone. Sway Calloway conducted the first joint interview with the two heavyweights since they made peace in front of thousands at Jay-Z’s "I Declare War" concert in October and subsequently became partners in a joint venture that brought Nas and his "Jones Experience" label to Def Jam.
Nas’ light fade haircut and cool demeanor looked lifted right off the cover of It Was Written. Wearing a multi-colored, throwback leather Nike jacket, with Jay rocking a blue BAPE hoody to match his signature Yankees fitted, it seemed as if the past, present and future of hip hop sat embodied in two men. They responded to disses hurled by 50 Cent and Cam’ron about their union, discussed their personal and business relationships, and what they felt in the midst of their 2001 battle that "stopped the world."
Sway: Hey, I'm going to interview you two like a fan today. It's a historical moment in music, the two of you coming together like this. It's not just important for music; in my opinion it's important for the streets. At one point, in the midst of your beef, I had the chance to speak with both of you individually. And I asked if there was ever the possibility that you would work with the man sitting next to you — and you both said no. Why here and why now?
Jay Z : You hear sayings when you're younger, like "Never say never" and things like that, but you think they're just sayings, you're too young to really comprehend. But even in the midst of everything that we was going through as far as battle, there was a deep respect there. To go at someone like that, you have to have respect for them. [Otherwise] you wouldn't care, you'd just brush it off like it ain't about nothing. At the time I was like "never," but you grow and then realize: Never say never. It's bigger than both of us, like you said. It's more about the culture and about showing people another way, because what we staged was something that stopped the world for a second. So now — [to Nas] if I'm talking too much just tell me! — everyone emulates the final result.
Nas : Great answer. I basically feel the same — in the midst of a battle you never know how it's going to turn out because everything is at stake. It can go either way and you know that you have to fight to the finish. But it was always respect — it wasn't a point where he wanted to gun me down or I wanted to gun him down. It was never that. That's not how I think real bosses move or how real men move. At this point of the game, this was inevitable, I feel. What direction is out there for us to follow? At the end of the day, it's bigger than both of us in this rap thing. I'm a fan of rap and I don't have to front like a lot of artists today want to front, like they want to go from zero to 60. As soon as they start their career, they come out slandering people, acting crazy. And this is another way for it to go.
Sway : There are pictures of you guys dating back to 1997, sitting together as friends. But during your beef, [Jay] even challenged Nas to a boxing match. So even though you respected each other as MCs, you didn't like each other?
Jay : Of course not. That would be —
Nas : Not to cut you off — don't get me wrong, we weren't savages about [the battle]. But around that time it was intense.
Jay : Boxing was a clean way. I wasn't on the radio saying, "I'm going to see him and whatever whatever," you know, just being ridiculous with it. But when you in it, you in it. You know what I'm saying? In the midst of battle, you trying to come out of it. All is fair in love and war.
Sway : You felt the same way?
Nas : Absolutely. There was no liking about it. I couldn't hear the song in the club — and how you not going to hear his songs in the club? I thought it was personal. So it was like it was on.
Sway : What is the nature of the deal that you guys are doing together? How do you break it down?
Nas : This industry of music goes back from the blues to now. One of the dudes that showed me [the ways of the business] was my dad [blues/jazz musician Olu Dara, featured on Nas' "Bridging the Gap"], 'cuz he's been around the world doing his music thing. He showed me this is the way to go and be your own boss and do what you do. And one thing about this industry: It gives you a freedom, but it's also controlled by people that don't really understand this music or this culture — or respect it. I saw there was a lot of opportunity for me; there was nothing better than to ride with this movement right here. Where Jay is at, Def Jam, it felt like the people that are there respect it and love the culture even more than this man. To reconcile and have redemption together and come to Def Jam, I felt that it would be better to go over there and do this for the people. So I'm on Def Jam.
Sway : So it mattered what you two said about each other? That's why it was symbolic of that respect; that's why you responded to him.
Jay : Right — somebody that's on your level.
Sway : Nas, you've also had your own company, Ill Will, so in a sense you're a boss. It doesn't bother you that people might think now that Jay is your boss?
Nas : I can't control what people think. They know who I am.
Sway : Jay, I'm not going to lie: When "Takeover" came out, I was thinking, "How is Nas going to respond to this?" You summarized Nas' career as one hot album every 10 years, and you went on to imply that the knowledge he kicks is garbage. But now you're a CEO and you signed him as an artist. What is your opinion of him now?
Jay : Like I said, when the war is going on, all you trying to do is point out things that's going to get the most of people. Like I said, it's always been a level of respect there. I, for not one second, ever said I don't believe that he's one of the best lyricists ever. And that's what it is, at the end of the day. We are not in wartime right now: We thinking with sensible minds, we're thinking bigger than what was said on the record.
Sway : As bold as it is that you came together, you still got issues coming at you. Nas, you and 50 have been at war with words for the past however long, and the same now with [Jay] and Cam'ron — Cam recently put out a dis record against you.
Nas : I have never been in a word war with 50. 50 came up with me. I brought him on tours with me. I like him a lot. I got a lot of love for him. To tell you something real, I think he was hurt by me by certain things that he thought that I did were against him in certain ways. He didn't understand the moves that I was making. He thought I was against him in certain ways, and he had a lot of love for me and looked up to me and respected me in so many ways for me bringing him on with me and giving him a lot of knowledge. I never had any words, and his thing is he's going to say whatever is on his mind. And sometimes he don't know when to stop, and I think he just got to get those things off his chest. And of course I say a little thing here and there, but at the end of the day I know it was hurtful.
Sway: : [To Jay] You got an interesting dilemma, because now you wear a suit and you wear the hoodie, and you have a former artist [Cam'ron] getting at you. And the thing, to me, that got you to the position you are now is your credibility as an MC. But as you move as an MC, how does that affect your ability as a CEO?
Jay : I don't think ["You Got to Love It," Cam'ron's dis record against Jay] could ever question my credibility as a MC. It's not anything challenging enough or artistic enough. I think we all know what the record is. It's too blatant — it's not even well thought-out. So I don't think it challenges anything. But why is this a question for us? Do I have beef with 50 now and does Nas have beef with Cam now? That's the type of thinking that we are trying to get past. I know its going to take a minute. It's a very valid question and I'm not minimizing your question in any way.
Nas : This here is a threat, bottom line. I think dudes need to learn from it, man. Be men.
Sway : How many times have you both said it's a competitive game? This is what you do, this is what's in your heart. There's not a [response] record sitting on your shelf?
Jay : I didn't say that. I move by what I feel. So at some point, I feel like swinging back. Like De Niro [in "Taxi Driver"], cleaning that garbage up, I might do that. I mean, there is nothing that deserves my immediate attention-
Sway: I know [there's a Jay-Z song dissing Cam'ron] in your heart.
Jay : If you want the record, just ask for it. Just say, "Jay, give me the record." [He smiles.]
Sway : I want to know that you made it.
Jay : No, I didn't make it. Not yet.
Sway : But there's always a possibility. Jay: Never say never! That's how I started this whole thing off, right?
Sway : So where does that leave you? You guys are all aligned. If someone comes after Jay or comes after Nas, you're a team now: Does Jay come to Nas' defense? Does Nas come to Jay's defense?
Nas : Honestly, I don't really see no competition [that would need] me to come to his defense. I don't think he sees any competition coming my way. We haven't had one conversation, [to Jay] I haven't talked to you, really, about that. Maybe once or twice about little small things, but that's all it is. I haven't seen any real threats. I've only seen how this has threatened them. Actually, when we met we talked about who was going to jump out the window and go crazy. And now I'm watching them really go crazy. It's entertainment.
Sway : Who's "them"? Who was on the list?
Jay : We'll give it to you after we leave!
Sway : Right now, I must admit your energy seems extremely positive. I'm trying to understand the dynamic of what's going to happen between you in the studio, because both of you guys are alpha MCs! You [Jay] have to wear the hat of CEO; your [Nas] last two albums, people might argue that they weren't commercial enough. That's not necessarily good business for you. Jay: But don't turn me into the guy with the suit — nasty, straight-up "I think we should double the chorus" type of guy. Don't turn me into that. I'm a creative guy. Same way John Lennon said, the album with "Imagine" on it [Imagine], he said he made the same album again, he just made it easy for everyone to understand and more powerful. "This album was a success; this album was a failure." That's all uptight.
Nas : Let's not forget, art can sell. You ain't gotta front all the time on your records. [Jay's] proven that, I've proven that. I think that the art is going to get really blown up a lot better, and really focused on a lot more.
Sway : Let me ask you this: There's a lot of speculation that you [Jay] are going to come back with an S. Carter album.
Jay : What's that? 'Cuz it's not a Jay-Z album, that makes me a different person?
Sway : Hey man, you a tricky guy! Is that in the works?
Jay : I don't know. That was just too deep, too profound. Who knows? Maybe work on [Nas' forthcoming] album [will be] the reason I'm inspired to do it. I didn't want to make albums to make them because it was the fourth quarter, or it was time to make them. I was making albums every year, an album and a half every year. '96, '97, '98 — I never missed a year. And then one day I look up and I'm like, what am I doing? What, I'm going to make an album this year because it's November? Or to say "eight summers," "nine summers" at some point?
Sway : The moment you guys met onstage at the "I Declare War" concert in October: I know you planned on it, but when the crowd actually got to see that for the first time — describe that feeling.
Jay : Unreal, surreal. There was a second of, like, "Are we seeing that?" And then it was pandemonium. If there was any reservation still at that point, it was all gone — like, "Yeah, we are doing the right thing."
Nas : It was crazy. It was chilling. I thought about how I got into this business because of watching Run-DMC and all of them. Those guys made history and I felt like, "Wow, this is that moment." There may have been other times when I was like, "I sold a lot of records on that album, I made history right here." But that moment? I never saw it coming. It's hard to explain.
Sway : Why did you call it the "I Declare War" concert? Cam'ron said you did it because you are going to wage war on him and the Diplomats, that you was digging up old materials to expose onstage that day. But none of that seemed to happen.
Jay : It was one of those things that snowballed. Anybody who knows me knows that I'm thinking about that like that. To put all that effort and energy into ... whatever. There was a lot of things being said, right? So I went up to the radio station like "I declare war," and I told everybody "I hear you" and put everybody on notice. But as the days went by, I was like, "What am I doing? Why am I doing that? What do I gain by doing that?" That's me reverting, being small again. Let's do something bigger than that [instead]. Sway: You two have come together, but you still have a lot of people that want to get at you on the mic. They're gonna make fun of your union: "Look at them now — they friendly, they cool, they hugged up."
Nas : But you know what? That movement, it happened. And it's too late for what we already did. Now they're gonna hear music. We showed the world something for ourselves, and for the fans. We did this for them. So now it's time for music. They saw that move, they can talk about it all they want. Bring the poster up — I'll sign it for you, but that's done now and we moving on.
Sway : Jay, I know you're itching for somebody to throw some verbal torpedoes at the two of you. If G-Unit makes a record dissing Nas, if Dipset makes a record dissing Jay — you're not gonna respond?
Jay : We are grown men. Be strong. I don't feel like he needs any help in any area. I don't feel like I need any help in any area.
Sway : It's been rumored that you've been working with Dr. Dre on his Detox album. Is it true that you've been ghostwriting for him?
Jay : Well, I don't know if I can answer that question. I mean, I spoke to Dre a couple of times. I don't know if he's gonna go all the way through with Detox. I worked with him on Chronic 2001, so there is absolutely a possibility. If he's gonna do Detox and go through with it, I would love to be involved in it. Dre is another legend and a leader in our field. I would love to be involved in it — that is, if he's gonna go through with it.
Sway : So you two haven't been working in the studio at all.
Jay : No. We haven't been in the studio, no.
Sway : And would you solicit Dre to work with Nas?
Jay : I mean, that goes without saying.
Nas : [Like he's being overlooked.] I got a relationship with Dre! I know Dre. We got a platinum album together on the Firm [the 1997 LP Nas, Foxy Brown, AZ and Nature Present the Firm: The Album, to which Dre contributed].. I actually already started working with Dre, quiet as kept. But it was really a small thing.
Sway : Jay, you've collaborated with big-name artists in the past, mainly R. Kelly, and it didn't go too well. Do you have concerns about working with Nas?
Jay : That's different. We made an album together, me and R. Kelly. This is Nas' album. It's his artistic vision of wherever he wants to go. I can help, Mark Pitts, anybody else who can offer advice. But at the end of the day that's his decision. So you can't be in a fallout over something that's his. It's not our album; it's his album. It's his artistic direction and expression, and where he sees himself going. [To Nas] I'm talking like you not here!
Nas : Like, when the 50s [artists like 50 Cent] do albums, it's like there's 20 artists in the studio — when you see Dre do an album, it's a whole team. I never really ... I went and chose my own dudes to work with. I put my boys on: I put one of my homies, LES, on the album, my man Salaam is crazy, put him on the album. Mark Pitts a great dude who knows this music thing, [I want him] to be around while I make this project. I finally got brothers around me that's here with me, that can relate to music. [Jay's] talking about John Lennon — I don't hear rappers talking about people like him because they don't know why they should. He does, so we have an understanding of music, we mix our bond better, we talking about creating and we talking about art. I can play a song by Marvin [Gaye] and get his feedback. He can play me a song by whoever and I give my feedback on it. We take that in, and that's what the process is like.
Sway : Are you disappointed with the present state of rap?
Jay : I never want to sound like the guy, you know, who's been doing it and criticizes it. But I love it, so I can criticize it in some way. I think now, in what we do — I'm going include myself in the equation — what we do as artists is emulate the final result. But the artists that we loved added something to the game. It was Biggie's wit, charisma and charm. Pac's fire and hot head — and passion and Black Panther background — really made those songs. So people look at the songs, and you take [Biggie's] "Hypnotize," for example, and they say [he] had to make a club song, instead of saying what all led up to that club song, or led up to [2Pac's] "Dear Mama" — his mom was in jail when she had him. We emulate the final result [instead of what went into it]. Of course you're not gonna get those results, you're not gonna be in love with [today's] artists, because they are emulating the final result. There are a lot of good records out there and a lot of good albums. Not as many as before, so I'm disappointed in a way.
Nas : I look at the state of the game. I'll always love rap, no matter what's going on. You look at it, and you say all of us are not putting our best foot forward. Not just the rappers, you look at the DJs and the stuff they playing — it's not necessarily that stuff that made you want to rap. It's a system now. Back in the day, Rap Attack, Mr. Magic, Marley Marl, Red Alert, Chuck Chillout — what Biggie was talking about in "Juicy" — that's missing. When DJs were playing something like when I first heard UTFO — it wasn't because it was a hit. Those were joints; DJs was letting us hear the jams on the radio. It was like, "Damn, I want to write today!" So it ain't just the rappers when I say I ain't feeling the game. I'm talking about all of us. Let's make it pop again.
Sway : I don't want to keep going back to the battle, but when it was going down, was there anything that made you go, "Oohhh, he hit me hard with that."
Jay : Nah, 'cuz I was in it. I wasn't viewing from a statistical point of view. I felt like there was things that were over the line that made me say things that were over the line. So it was just stuff like that.
Sway : Nas, when you heard verses from "Takeover," didn't it make you go, "Damn, Jay ain't playing — he's serious."
Nas : Yeah, I mean, the seriousness of the record alone. The way the track was going, the way it was put together. It was well thought-out and it wasn't something I can say ... In all honesty, at first I was like, whatever. But the streets wasn't letting me go like that. So I had to really pay attention, and I realized it was really on.
Sway : Jay, how did you feel when he came back with "Ether"?
Jay : Right away, I gained a whole level of respect [for Nas]. Not many people come back after ["Takeover"]. That was like a figure-four leg-lock — I mean, you can't get out of that. You can't escape that one. It was like, OK — that whole level of respect.
Nas : Then I just lit a bomb! Sway: That's good y'all can joke around about that now. Jay, is there anything Nas said that was hurtful to you?
Jay : Yeah, absolutely. We both are from a certain ... there are unsaid things, where we grew up. And once you say certain things, you know, you cross the line. When you say something to another man like, you own mine, you know what you saying to that man.
Sway : You did say a lot of that, too. Everybody knew Jay had the gloves off in "Takeover," if I can paraphrase what he says, "I did you-know-what with you-know-who, but we gonna leave that between me and you." And it turned out that it was alluding to [Nas'] child's mother. How did you feel about that?
Nas : I feel like that was tactful coming from him, how he lined that line up. Once you got a line like that, that's like the famous 2Pac "How you gonna call yourself a playa?" even though I wasn't married or nothing like that back then. That's tactfulness and it was kind of like, how do you respond to that? Because no matter what you say, that's a line — that's a hard line. I was like, you supposed to go to the next level and maybe say things that were a little crazy. That's just responding. In a war, just responding to words, you gonna pull out your heavy artillery. But that's what that was then. My child's involved, children are involved, so we left it at that.
Sway : So because of your child you don't even speak on ...
Nas : I mean, there was even a moment when Jay was on the radio and you know, moms said, "Chill." His mom, my mom — bless her — was listening and I was like, "Wow, my moms was listening." And the fact that he said it on the radio [when] his mom was listening, that's when I knew we both went too far.
Sway : Well, there you have it. Good luck — and thanks for sitting down.
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